George Clarke - Chief Executive, Public Health Services

In this episode of the One Health Podcast, Dorian Broomhall gets to know George Clarke, Chief Executive Public Health Services in a conversation recorded when George was Acting Deputy Secretary Community, Mental Health and Wellbeing. 

George talks about taking a non-linear career path and finding fulfilment by straying from our life plans. 

He speaks about how important it is as a leader to be surrounded by experts. 

And he shares his thoughts on where our health service is headed over the next few years. 

That’s the end of the first series of the One Health Podcast. We’ll be back soon with season 2, which will focus on what we can do individually and as an organisation to support our wellbeing.

Transcript

Dorian Broomhall:

Welcome to the One Health Podcast. This episode was recorded on the land of the palawa people. I acknowledge and pay respect to all Tasmanian Aboriginal people and to their deep history of storytelling.

My name's Dorian Broomhall and I'm the manager of Culture and Wellbeing for the Department of Health in lutruwita Tasmania. For this episode of the podcast, I got to know George Clarke, the Chief Executive of Public Health Services. A conversation took place last year when George was still acting Deputy Secretary of Community Mental Health and Wellbeing.

In our conversation, George talks about his unconventional career journey, being open to taking a different path, and finding fulfilment in places you hadn't planned. He speaks about the importance of being surrounded by a strong team and leaning on experts as a leader. He also shares his thoughts on the direction of our health service over the next few years.

We start every chat with the same question. So let's get into it.

Did you want to be when you were in kindergarten?

George Clarke:

I think at that point it would've been a policeman.

Dorian Broomhall:

Policeman? Oh, what went wrong with your police career?

George Clarke:

I think as you go through something at a point in time, like as a youth, you looked at things that you could trust, and I think that police was one of those things that you saw at that point in time it was a place of safety. Or otherwise as you go through education, you aspire to different things and I suppose my passion then became about the environment and went down a different path. Worked in aquaculture both overseas, here. Went back to university as a mature aged student in marine resource management. Left that and found that I couldn't get the job that I really wanted. You know I could continue in that direction or go a different path, then I chose to go that other path.

Dorian Broomhall:

It is interesting too when we look at the leaders that we have to just hear quite how diverse the backgrounds are, given that we work for the Department of Health. A background in marine resources seems a fairly radical change, but tell me a little about that first though. What drew you to working in that space or wanting to operate in that space?

George Clarke:

I think, Dorian, like having worked, as I mentioned before in aquaculture, which was both in Scotland and here, and looking at the industry, the way that I was going to progress forward was by having some greater skills to contribute. It's an industry that was becoming quite tech-based even back then. So developing myself was the path.

And then I thought I'd take it a different direction through government potentially, or what was in the Department of Primary Industries. Applied for a couple of graduate jobs, which I was unsuccessful with. And then the thought of, well, getting out of what I was doing, ended up taking on a role as a Workplace Standards trainee back with Department of Justice in 2008.

So quite a different direction, but bringing sort of an industry perspective, some base skills from having done an undergraduate degree and yeah, took a different path.

Dorian Broomhall:

What's a Workplace Standards trainee?

George Clarke:

Basically it was a trainee inspector role under what was then the Work Health and Safety Act at the time. So working with Department of Justice, Workplace Standards, Tasmania at Rosny. So a completely different direction-

Dorian Broomhall:

Wow.

George Clarke:

... to what I had trained and what I'd been hoping to do. But then I saw that I suppose as a regulatory interest and getting to work back in that same sector that I'd been part of. So embarked on a different journey there.

Dorian Broomhall:

What kept you working in that space rather than pursuing what you had worked so hard to train for?

George Clarke:

Look, I could see the transferability of the skills that I had, and it was also probably the opportunity to be developed by the programme that was being offered. So for me, it was a fantastic start. You know a 12-month process which was just focused on training me to be, I suppose, what was required to do the job well. And also like a safe introduction to a government environment, which I think often people apply for jobs and get thrown into the deep end, and this maybe was a bit of a soft launch.

So in hindsight, very fortunate to have had that experience. And from there, I suppose preempting your next question, Dorian, I worked through every level from inspector to senior inspector to team leader before taking a different direction at that point to go into building compliance and managing, building compliance teams in Department of Justice.

And then working together with merging consumer affairs and the building regulator at a period of time and taking on broader functions. At which point I think I had the consumer affairs helpline advisory service and all different functions that came together a number of years ago. So morphed into a different direction then, but still sort of in a regulatory and information capacity.

Dorian Broomhall:

Yeah, fascinating. I know a couple of people that have worked in that space and I had no idea about it until I talked to people who have worked in it. Right, because for most of it's not something that we give a great deal of thought to. Did you meet Dale when you were working in that world?

George Clarke:

I did meet Dale in that world, and he was there for about four or five years I think, and then Kath also for a period of time as well as the secretary of the department of, so we had really strong leadership which transferred over here to toward health.

Dorian Broomhall:

And what was your jump then across into health? When did that happen?

George Clarke:

Back two years ago, I suppose.

Dorian Broomhall:

Yeah, okay.

George Clarke:

Mid-COVID. Yeah.

Dorian Broomhall:

Good time.

George Clarke:

Yeah, so totally. So I stayed in that space for a while. Ended up at the back of my last period of justice being the Acting Executive Director of WorkSafe, so taking a step back into that regulatory role. So I suppose finishing as the executive director at the place that I commenced as a trainee a number of years before.

So it was an interesting journey, but I'd been for a period of time, so managing the registrations work with Vulnerable Persons Unit as the registrar and also the Residential Tenancy Commission. Everything that I've been doing in justice, it's been involved sort of community protection in some form or another. And the opportunity for the role of the General Manager of the Mental Health, Alcohol and Drug Directorate came up for which I applied and was fortunately successful, and that was my introduction to health.

Dorian Broomhall:

I think that's a beautiful link when you think community, right? There's so many different ways that each of us can serve the community and can be drawn to it in various different things. And I was having a conversation with someone who sits in your part of the organisation just yesterday, who similar story almost to you in how you progressed at Justice. Started out as a trainee and got to the point of now running that particular part of the organisation. And yeah, he said, "Well, yeah, my motivation to keep working here is that we're serving the community really well. I'm not necessarily a technical expert in this field. However, I've gone through the policy ranks and gone through that sort of side of things, but I'm really glad to be contributing for the community in some way, shape, or form." I thought that was a really nice perspective. Sounds like it's a little bit similar for you.

George Clarke:

Yeah, very much so. I think when you've got a role where you can actually see that there's a tangible outcome for people, it makes it very easy to commit.

Dorian Broomhall:

Do you have any, regrets is the wrong word, but do you miss thinking, do you ever think about wanting to go back over across to that other part of the world that you trained in 15, 20 years ago?

George Clarke:

No. I really enjoy the diversity that we've got at health. I think there is such breadth across portfolio. There's something of interest everywhere and that I think you can contribute broadly. Because there's those aspects that work from the prior role also exist within the Department of Health. And it is a focus about people helping people in the community, so that's what we're here for.

Dorian Broomhall:

Yeah, I love it. So I've got a pretty big curiosity, I suppose as someone who very interested in leadership and aspiring to learn more all the time. From the outside looking in the job that you've got right now, the Acting Deputy Secretary role of Community Mental Health and Wellbeing, it's an enormous, complex and very diverse portfolio. What's it like for someone like yourself stepping into that relatively new to health? Understanding how the healthcare system works your portfolio really intertwines so many different parts of it, perhaps more than others. I don't know if everybody necessarily appreciates that, but I think about who reports into your portfolio, but it's pretty massive. What's that been like for you to wrap your head around?

George Clarke:

Stunned silence? It can be quite difficult, but I think it's about the governance that you put in and about how you interact with each of the areas. We've been fortunate that of all the portfolio sections within community mental health and wellbeing, there's strong leaders so that you've got people that are experts and that follows on down through the service. So it's about providing a mechanism for the leaders to meet and also for you to engage with them.

Dorian Broomhall:

What do you see your role in that?

George Clarke:

I see that as providing some support, guidance, and judgement associated with the activities that have been done, but also going out of my way to get to understand how the service operates so that I can provide that contribution. Yeah, it is very diverse in the portfolio. I look at everything from Allied Health to Voluntary Assisted Dying, Oral Health. You could go on.

Dorian Broomhall:

Throw in the ambulance service in there as well, Sam. It's a really interesting portfolio. And I like your point too about having really strong leaders across and who are often very, very much experts in that sort of field.

When you are faced with making a decision, which sometimes has to be binary, it's a yes or no, which we don't always love, and you've got differing opinions from different experts and you know that you're not an expert in making that decision, what's your process? How do you go about moving that forward?

George Clarke:

Look, firstly, I think it's about getting those perspectives, like you said. Making sure that people have been heard and that they've had that opportunity. Then I think it comes down to balancing the risk in every situation, making sure it's proportional to the decision that you're going to make. Making a black and white decision or a binary decision, you've got to be clear as to why you've taken that and have some solid grounds that you can communicate back. At least then if the parties, even if they don't disagree with you, they've probably got a better understanding of the process that you've come to make that decision.

Dorian Broomhall:

Yeah, I think that closing that loop of communication and often when you're busy, that's hard to do, isn't it? How do you keep doing that?

George Clarke:

It is hard to do, but I think that comes back to the structured approach that you have with your management groups so that you have those regular meetings, you have an opportunity to connect on a regular basis, and then I suppose you have to find the time. A difficult and time-sensitive decision comes up for consideration that you reach out at that point in time so that you do keep people in the loop.

And I must say that we are supported very well. When I look at particularly the Community Mental Health and Wellbeing portfolio around me, there's three really strong executive officers and policy officers providing support for which I would not be able to do the job-

Dorian Broomhall:

Mm-hmm. Yep.

George Clarke:

... without their support.

Dorian Broomhall:

If you think back to that decision-making process of yourself back in even 2007, 2008 when things weren't going the way that you hoped them to do, if you could give yourself some advice right now, going back there, what would that advice be?

George Clarke:

I think sometimes if you persist on a path that you're not succeeding, you need to look at what an alternative one is. If there's a block over there, a lot of admiration for people that continue to push to something if they're that committed, but often there's probably an alternative pathway that'll get you doing something that you enjoy or you find fulfilling. I think probably exploring that sometimes just to look at things differently. Take apart.

Dorian Broomhall:

It's a really beautifully simple way to remember it, right.

George Clarke:

I think sometimes you can use a thousand words, Dorian, and then things could be pretty simple and that's probably the best way to play and to express yourself.

Dorian Broomhall:

So you've now been sitting within the health executive for the last period of time as whilst you've been sitting in a part of these conversations, we've been introducing this idea of organisational values. In your perhaps past getting to where you are now, have you had experiences of using values as a leader or values-based leadership that's worked for you?

George Clarke:

Yeah, definitely. The prior organisation with these had a strong focus on values and they were implemented down into each of the output units and were part of the conversations that were had on a regular basis, down to that sort of team management type discussions. I think I'm fortunate and I can see some similarities in the values that we've come up with too within health, but I think for me, it is about people first and that's always been a strong one for me. So I can see that coming through with what we've got when it comes to compassion. Look, obviously empathy being the precursor component to that and being an integral, but yeah, it is that person-centred type approach.

Dorian Broomhall:

I'm also curious as someone who's joined the Health Executive for some of these conversations, it's a particularly interesting group, I think, and I feel more comfortable coming to that table now than I certainly did to begin with because you've got a group full of very bright capable people who are very happy to disagree constructively. We're not always used to that, but I think it's a really big positive. How have you viewed the process that we've gone through constructing these values and the conversations that you've been a part of at Health Executive as someone who's come in midway through, I suppose?

George Clarke:

I think you touched upon it there, that they're a group that are quite prepared to share their opinion, which is necessary for a good outcome. But I think the values that it would come up with are quite rigorous and they reflect what broadly, because they've been challenged along the way, including the wording. Look, I think of not sure to what extent this series has captured what they actually are, Dorian, but if I look at the concepts of collaboration to begin with, which now I think are more accurately reflected when it comes to compassion. And the different things that those conversations that the Health Executive have been quite robust around what it is and making sure that they're representative of the feedback from the services. Particularly note the voice that was heard from the LGH that was articulated at the Executive. So in all, I think the process has been really good.

Dorian Broomhall:

And in terms of now moving forward to implement these values, any thoughts? What do you think we can do to make it work?

George Clarke:

I think we need to be out there. We need to be, including myself, including all the leaders, we need to be talking to our managers, going out there. One, it's demonstrating them, leading them, leading them. That's always important, and I think our leaders do that because as a leader, people look to you and also the behaviours that you demonstrate and the communication that you make to them. So it's out there living it and doing it, but we need to find a way that it comes through every meeting that we've got and through every group.

I think understanding is the first key. So making sure that people do understand the process that the team went through and the Health Executive as well come to them having heard from the broader service. Yeah, it's a big job. What are your thoughts stirring?

Dorian Broomhall:

My thoughts are that I've learned a lot through the process and as I think I articulated when we ran that workshop with the executive earlier in the week, I found myself referencing the values far more than I ever expected to. Through the process of speaking with you and your colleagues and learning about how it can apply in different situations and actually the value of the very small... You know someone didn't follow through with something that perhaps we thought they could have, but it's actually easy for us to take accountability and say, well, actually we can give you a bit of compassion here and we can take a bit of accountability because we actually probably could have done a better job of that. And reflecting that back in every single small thing that we do, rather than get frustrated, just go bit of compassion, we'll take some accountability and then we'll move forward to this idea of ideally getting some excellence.

But all of those small things and that small point of almost interrupting that conversation, but whilst before someone goes down the spiral of, "I'm so disappointed this hasn't gone the way that I want," and it's say, "Okay, well first of all, what's our role here?" Is there something that we can own and take accountability for? And I think for me that's been a really strong starting point because it just takes the heat out before you get into this problem situation.

And I think just finally something that I'd be really interested to hear from you, what do you think our health service in Tasmania should be looking at really trying to do over the next couple of years? You know there's so much talk in the media about everything, and I'm not going to hold you to account on any of this sort of necessarily, but is there any sort of future direction that you think that is particularly useful for all of us to think about contributing to?

George Clarke:

Look, I think the thing that I've enjoyed the most since I've been here has been involved with the reform activities for mental health, Dorian, and what we've achieved there in that space. If I look at Peacock House coming online and what we've got there with the integration hub. And the fact that people can walk in, we've got people with lived experience as peer workers. We're actually starting to provide a wraparound service. We've got community-based services there. I think we've got to look for alternative models and we need to be working with the community sector as well to achieve things.

I think workforce, I think a lot of people would probably talk to this, but it's about how we get our workforce. I don't think we can continue to just name it up as an issue. Rather, we've got to be looking at how do we develop the next groups to go through or what are alternative models? You know can we through consultation, do this and in a different manner by introducing new roles that could be supporting our nurses, be supporting our medical offices or our Allied Health.

Really throwing it up there and having some good discussions both internally and externally about that, and engaging with the universities to make sure that we've got the pipeline because that's okay. It's about the people and having them in here for the service. And if we don't do that, we can have great assets and great infrastructure, we engaged and competent people. So that'd be my thing.

Dorian Broomhall:

I think it's great workforce.

George Clarke:

I'm just looking at things differently.

Dorian Broomhall:

Thanks, George. It's been great chat.

George Clarke:

No, thank you.

Dorian Broomhall:

Thanks to George Clark, the Chief Executive of Public Health Services for taking the time to speak with us, and to you for listening. Hope you found something in our conversation that you can take away and apply into your own work.

That's all for this first season of the One Health Podcast. Join us in the next season as we explore the Six Pillars of Wellbeing and speak to people from across the department about what they do to promote their own wellbeing and the wellbeing of people around them.