Andrew Hargrave - Deputy Secretary Infrastructure

In this episode of the One Health Podcast, Dorian Broomhall gets to know Andrew Hargrave, Deputy Secretary Infrastructure.

Andrew speaks about his career has taken him from working on bridges in New South Wales to a heath infrastructure in Tasmania.

He talks about being his genuine self and shares his thoughts on the importance of creating a safe environment in which different views can be shared.

Andrew considers how we can make our CARE Values part of business as usual, and about what he does after having a difficult conversation.

Transcript

Dorian Broomhall:

Welcome to the One Health Podcast. This episode was recorded on the land of the palawa people. I acknowledge and pay respect to all Tasmanian Aboriginal people and to their deep history of storytelling.

My name's Dorian Broomhall and I'm the manager of Culture & Wellbeing for the Department of Health in lutruwita / Tasmania. For this episode of the podcast, I got to know Andrew Hargrave, the deputy secretary of infrastructure. In our conversation, Andrew speaks about his career journey across multiple states, and how he moved from working with Bridges to working with health infrastructure.

He talks about being his genuine self and being comfortable just doing the things that he knows he can do well. Andrew shares his thoughts on the importance of feeling safe to speak and encouraging different views. He also speaks about how we can make sure our care values are a part of everything that we do, and also his approach to having difficult conversations.

We start every chat with the same question, so let's get into it. What did you want to be when you were in kindergarten?

Andrew Hargrave:

Oh, a grader driver.

Dorian Broomhall:

A grader driver?

Andrew Hargrave:

Yeah. I had an uncle who was a grader driver, and I remember... So I grew up in a small country town in New South Wales, about two and a half thousand people, but I had an uncle. My dad was one of 10 kids and I think all but two of them lived in this small town of two and a half thousand people in Central West, New South Wales where I lived.

My father's eldest sister was married to this guy who was a plant operator on the local council. And in those days he actually used to drive the big Cat grader home and he'd park it at his home. And whenever I went down to see them, I was always fascinated by this big yellow grader. So as a very young boy, I wanted to be a grader operator.

Dorian Broomhall:

That's fascinating.

Andrew Hargrave:

Yeah.

Dorian Broomhall:

Amazing that you've got that story fast tucked away.

Andrew Hargrave:

Yeah.

Dorian Broomhall:

Yeah.

Andrew Hargrave:

Yeah.

Dorian Broomhall:

And so I broadly understand that you work in infrastructure, so I'm guessing there's some sort of strange link there somehow?

Andrew Hargrave:

Well, there is, but when I was at school, I was... So maths and science were my strong points and it was logical for me, I wasn't interested in medicine or anything like that. I didn't get into it. I've got a sister who's a doctor, but I didn't get into medicine, but it made sense that I'd go into science or engineering or something like that.

I was originally enrolled to do mechanical engineering, and I'm still much more interested in that than I am in civil engineering, which is what I'm actually trained in. But when I finished high school and being a kid from a small country town, I wanted to be able to move back to the bush. And in those days, the best way to do that if you wanted to be an engineer, was to be a civil engineer 'cause you could get a job working on a local council or the New South Wales Soil Conservation service or something like that.

So while I was originally enrolled in mechanical engineering at Newcastle Uni, I actually swapped to civil in my first week there in O week, and studied civil engineering. So I think there's a link so far as well, actually I really like machines, but I didn't do mechanical engineering for the reasons that I've just explained to you. But obviously if you get into civil engineering, like I did, and particularly in the area of civil engineering that I got into, which was infrastructure and particularly road and bridge infrastructure, you always see graders.

So there was lots of big toys and scrapers and graders and things like that. So there's a link, but maybe just a little bit tenuous, I guess.

Dorian Broomhall:

Fascinating. So you graduated as a civil engineer then after swapping over, despite your sort of personal preferences because it might suit your life, then what happened?

Andrew Hargrave:

When I finished university, my first job was building a cut and cover tunnel below South Dowling Street in Sydney, just before the Olympic Games. I was working for a company called Leighton Contractors, and they had won this big job in Sydney, which was called the Eastern Distributor, and basically was replacing the road that took traffic from the Cahill Expressway in Sydney, through a series of tunnels, down to the airports. It was all about improving infrastructure prior to the 2000 Olympic Games.

So I worked in Sydney for 12 months and we finished off that project. I was then subsequently retrenched by Leighton Contractors 'cause they had no more work in New South Wales. But my boss at the time managed to get me a job on a similar project that was being built in Brisbane by the same company, but the Queensland branch. So I moved up there over the Christmas period and started work on another cut and cover tunnel below what they call the RNA Showgrounds. I don't know if you're familiar with Brisbane or not.

So there's a cut and cover tunnel that goes under the RNA Showground, so that was the job that I worked on after that. It was a very quick transition from one tunnel in Sydney to another tunnel of the same design in Brisbane. I was there for a bit over 12 months, and then I got an opportunity to go and work in the UK for a couple of years. So I went and worked and I went back into... The work I'd done prior, had been in construction, so building things, but I had an interest in designing. So I was fortunate to be able to get a job with a consulting firm in the UK, and go and use some of my design skills.

So I went over to the UK and spent the next two years doing bridge rehabilitation design on the motorway system in the UK. So that was great. Two years over there working with some really clever engineers, huge motorways, lots of traffic and lots of thinking about the logistics of how you get things built. So even though I was designing, obviously you had to understand how you would build something, and the two years that I'd spent building stuff was very useful to applying to things that I was now designing. So I was there for two years and then I decided I wanted to feel the sun on my face again, so I came home to Australia.

And at that stage I got a job again with Leighton and they were building, what was called at the time, the Western Sydney Orbital Project. So that was a 40 kilometre section of road that basically completed the big link road around Sydney. So I was there for about nine or 10 months doing that. And then an opportunity came up working in what they call Bridge Branch, in the Roads & Traffic Authority. And that at the time was a job that I really wanted to pursue to get back into some bridge rehab design, which is the work I'd been doing in the UK.

I went over there as a contractor to start with, and I think I spent three years at the Roads & Traffic Authority. And then I was fortunate enough to apply for and win a transfer to one of their regional offices, which took me out to Western New South Wales to a town called Parkes, which was not too far away from my hometown. So that was good because I was able to work near my hometown and see my parents a bit, but I was then responsible for 1600 bridges across 53% of New South Wales. So it was a really interesting job because I got to see a lot of the western and the remote areas of New South Wales, and there are a lot of towns that I'd grown up in playing sport and stuff like that.

See, when you grow up in the bush, you travel to go to sport and all sorts of things, but we went right out to Broken Hill and right up to the border of Queensland and down south. Yeah, so it was a big area. It was sparsely populated, but I worked there for seven years and then my wife and I, we'd had both of our children and we decided, well, we'd always talked about giving Tassie a crack, and we've been here 10 years this year. So about this time 10 years ago, we both walked in and resigned from our jobs, said we're moving south and we just moved south.

My wife, she's a GP, so she had a couple of job offers pretty quickly. I moved down here, I didn't have a job, and I was fortunate enough to apply for and win a job over in what was the Department of Infrastructure Energy and Resources at the time. And I worked there. There was change of government and there was the creation of the Department of State growth, and that's where I met Shane Gregory. So I've worked quite closely with Shane for the last 10 years and moved up the ranks a little bit there.

And then three years ago, was fortunate enough to be given an opportunity to come over and work in health. So a lot of my background, as I transitioned out of that design and construction, I moved into asset management. So I was the asset manager at State Roads for a number of years. When I came over to Department of Health, I was responsible for running all of the Capital Works projects. So I've still got a background in project management and project delivery, so I did that.

And then recently I've been moved into the role of the Deputy Secretary of Infrastructure that looks after the asset management of all of our building, and all building assets and fleet assets and obviously project delivery still. And obviously we've got a Commercial Services arm that manages all of our contracting and the like. So it's a big portfolio. It was very broad. There's lots of different areas, lots to be across and health's a challenging environment. It's particularly challenging when you need to get things done while you're trying to continue to provide health services. But there's also some similarities with working on a motorway network, if you like, because you can't interrupt those services either.

So there's that impetus to do work, maintenance work, renewal work, rehabilitation work, but also continue to provide a service. There's some similarities with managing a motorway network or a road network in that regard. But obviously here it can be more complicated with the building systems that you've got and what various services in the hospital require, medical gases or uninterruptible power or those sorts of things. I'd never worked in the health sector before I came over to the Department of Health. It's been really good though.

It's been very interesting and it's broadened my knowledge and exposure of the industry broadly just in... As I said previously, most of my experience had been in the civil infrastructure area, whereas in the building and construction area, it's a bit of a shift. But in hospitals which are very complex in terms of fire systems and HVAC systems and medical gases and continuous power supplies, there's a whole nother layer of complexity. But it's very interesting stuff.

Dorian Broomhall:

That's so much in what you just said, that's fascinating just even looking after what it was it, 53% of new South Wales?

Andrew Hargrave:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Dorian Broomhall:

The total surface area there would be much greater than Tasmania. In Tasmania we've got our own regional challenges and that distributed system.

Andrew Hargrave:

Yeah, that's it.

Dorian Broomhall:

And then you layer in this sort of complex network of health as you talk about it.

Andrew Hargrave:

Yeah. Yeah.

Dorian Broomhall:

It's a big challenge.

Andrew Hargrave:

Yeah, it was a big challenge. It was good fun though. That's your career, isn't it? You've got to try and step up and... Not step up. I think that's a bit of a cliche, but really just if you're interested in something, there's going to be challenges along the way, but you've got to go after it, I think. And that's the way I've approached my career, is I've never really been one for the five-year plan or anything like that. I've been much more focused on seizing an opportunity when it's presented to me.

And that's stood me in good stead, and that's one of the reasons I came over to health. I saw that as being a real opportunity for me. So yeah, I think that's more my approach. It's more about just understanding the things that you're interested in and you want to get an exposure to, and then when an opportunity becomes available, you just go after it.

Dorian Broomhall:

When did you transition from being... Or you perhaps you never did, perhaps you've always sort of kept it that your job, being the expert on the technical how to do things, to then stepping up to more of that management and that leadership role where you're looking after multiple components at different times, that you don't need to be the expert in every single one of them.

Andrew Hargrave:

So for me, that happened when I took the transfer to the western region of New South Wales. So I was working for the Roads & Traffic Authority in Sydney in their bridge engineering branch. I won a position in one of their regional offices in Parkes in New South Wales. And it was at that point that I went from being a technical expert or a designing engineer, a classical engineer if you like, to someone that then had to run a team of people and be more focused on strategy and planning than actual delivery.

Obviously delivery is a very important part of it, but I had to lead the way I wanted it done. It was at that point, which was in 2007, so that was the first time that I started having to work in a leadership role as part of a senior leadership team in that office. So it was always something that I felt I wanted to do, but it wasn't like I had this burning ambition to go and be a manager or a senior manager, but it was a natural transition, if you like.

So it was at that point that I moved from the hard engineering into the softer management and strategy skills, that I didn't have necessarily at the start, but you developed. With some good guidance and mentorship, you learn them along the way. But I think importantly in my career, having that good technical background has always stood me in good stead. So in my case anyway, you might move into a management role, but I've always had the ability to fall back and understand and get a handle on concepts that are technical very quickly, because that's where I came from, and that's generally stood me in good stead. But that's really where it started for me in terms of a management role.

Dorian Broomhall:

So this is interesting, in the interactions that I've had with you, you strike me as someone who's both very calm and your communication is seemingly very authentic. You're you.

Andrew Hargrave:

Yeah.

Dorian Broomhall:

You speak the way that are.

Andrew Hargrave:

What you see is what you get, yep.

Dorian Broomhall:

Yeah.

Andrew Hargrave:

Yep.

Dorian Broomhall:

Not everybody operates like that, I don't think. Is that something that you've noticed as you've gone into perhaps the politics of leadership to an extent?

Andrew Hargrave:

Yeah. A number of people have said that to me, and it is a case of I don't pretend to be anyone that I'm not. I am just me. You've summed it up pretty well, but I think a bit of that has to do with... And maybe I'm jumping ahead here a bit, but it comes back to I guess things that I value, which is my integrity and just who I am and my honesty. So I don't try and be someone I'm not. I speak fairly frankly, in turn, I don't dress things up. I'm not the sort of person that tries to recreate a narrative. I just say things how they are, and I think that's probably where it comes from.

But people have said that to me before, that this term of being genuine has been put to me a couple of times, which I'm comfortable with. That sits comfortably with me. If I can be thought of as genuine, well that'll do me, yeah.

Dorian Broomhall:

It's a great way to put it. It's funny too 'cause thinking a lot of the leadership literature that's everywhere now, it's all about authenticity and you have to learn to be your genuine self and all the rest of it.

Andrew Hargrave:

Right.

Dorian Broomhall:

Which is kind of fascinating on one hand, isn't it?

Andrew Hargrave:

Yeah. You have to learn to be yourself. I think your self matures, I think, as you... Look, when you start your career, you're young and you're impressionable and you want to do well and climb the tree. I think you get to a point where you're comfortable... Or I did. You're just comfortable with who you are and what you can do and what your capability is. And I think for me, that's part of what I am, is I know what I can do and what I'm capable of doing.

I admire other people and there's lots of people who are far better at things than me, but I add value by doing what I can do within my skill set, I think. So yeah, this idea of being yourself is an important one to me, I think.

Dorian Broomhall:

There's a lot of talk now too around this idea of safety, and being safe to speak your mind and come across in however you might be. As someone who does present as that authentic, genuine self as we talked about, you ever had any times where you haven't felt okay to speak up and share a view?

Andrew Hargrave:

I've never felt unsafe about talking, particularly here. I've always felt with my interactions with the senior management team and senior managers more broadly, there's always been that opportunity to speak your mind and talk. I think there's always that bit of doubt sometimes when you're new in an organisation, about making a comment that might be seen you're ill-informed, or it's a stupid question. So I think we all suffer from a little bit of that from time to time.

But I'd have to say in my career, I've had a couple of instances, probably early on in my career when I was much more junior, where your ideas or your comments probably weren't as considered by your colleagues, particularly your senior colleagues as they could have been, but you're still learning. But I've never experienced that here. I always found working in the Department of Health that your senior colleagues, generally speaking have been happy to hear what you've got to say. They might not agree with you and that's perfectly fine, but they've always been willing to listen to you.

Dorian Broomhall:

I think that's a really important distinction too.

Andrew Hargrave:

Yeah.

Dorian Broomhall:

Happy to listen to you even if you don't agree.

Andrew Hargrave:

Yeah.

Dorian Broomhall:

'Cause that doesn't always happen.

Andrew Hargrave:

No, it shouldn't be that just because you've got an opinion, that people have to agree with you. That's not what it's about, and you're not going to get the best outcomes if everybody agrees. There has to be that challenging of ideas and just an acceptance. I think one of the things you see in business from time to time, is there's... I'm not suggesting here, and we all like it when we have a good idea and it's acknowledged, but the end game should be what's the best for the organisation or what's the best for the people that we're serving.

You won't get that if you've just got people always agreeing with you or with each other. I think that challenging of ideas and different ideas is really important, particularly in a big organisation like this one, where there's lots of risks, there's lots of different areas, there's lots of things that contribute to the services that we provide. It's good to have different views, different points of view and different things that you might need to consider to get to the best outcome.

Dorian Broomhall:

Yeah, I really agree with you. I think it's almost a deep-seated cultural piece in Australia, that we're not very good at disagreeing with one another.

Andrew Hargrave:

Yeah.

Dorian Broomhall:

How do you think that as leaders in this organisation or really any organisation, you can go about cultivating an environment where you don't want people to be at each other? That's not what I mean at all, but how do you cultivate an environment where people are encouraged to disagree in a way that is compassionate and respectful?

Andrew Hargrave:

Well, I think you have to let people feel safe to come or to speak. So I think this is one of the things we started talking about. You have to provide that environment where you're approachable, and that's on a one-on-one basis, but even in a meeting or a team basis, you have to create that environment where people feel firstly, it's safe so they can speak their mind. Secondly, that their opinion or what they've got to say will be listened to and it'll be valued. But I think if you've got those couple of key things... I think setting a good example as well, in terms of being that person that is happy to have a conversation, or to allow someone to disagree with you and put forward another.

It's really easy. And actually, I remember having a similar question in my interview when I came over here. When I first moved into a leadership role, I think one of the mistakes I made was I had this view in my head that I had to be right or I had to have all the knowledge. And I was managing some people who were 15 years older than me, very smart people who'd been in their game for a long time and I would think you have to be able to accept that someone might have a better idea than yours and then say, "That's a great idea. In fact, I think you are right."

So I think you have to have that confidence in yourself, and this comes back to being genuine and about being who you are and being comfortable in who you are, to just say, "Well, actually that's a really good idea, and I think you're right. That's better than..." Regardless of who you are, whether you're the deputy secretary of Infrastructure or you're the deputy secretary of community Mental Health and Wellbeing, or the associate secretary or the secretary, to be able to say, yeah, actually I can see your point of view. That's right. I think that's a better idea or that's a better way of doing it.

But equally, when you need something done a certain way, you need to be able to communicate that to your colleagues or your staff or whoever it is and say, "Yeah, okay, well, I've heard what you've had to say and yeah, I can see where you're going, but I need it done this way and here's the reason why." But you should always explain in decision making, I think because if you don't, people just get the idea that they've been fobbed off. So I think that ability to accept when there might've been a better idea that wasn't yours, that's really important. But also when you need something done a certain way that you explain why you're making your decision, so that people feel like they've been listened to and they can now understand why you want to go down a certain path.

Instead of just fobbing them off, you're just explaining why you need something done a certain way 'cause I think that really helps people feel like they are valued. That's my approach to it.

Dorian Broomhall:

You mentioned before that you've got this personal value of integrity and I think all of us being able to consider, well, what are our own personal values and how do we live them for ourselves to make sure that we are accountable to ourselves or whatever it be.

Andrew Hargrave:

Yeah.

Dorian Broomhall:

I think that's important. I also think there's great utility in an organisation that is as large and as complex as ours, having said that we can reasonably expect to share. Yeah, and I think what we've landed on with the care values with compassionate accountability, respect and excellence is a really nice way to go.

What I'm interested from your perspective, 'cause I think that that acronym lands so well for our clinical folks, right? But for those of us working in the non-clinical areas, how do you think those values or one of those specific values might be thought about or how you might approach living?

Andrew Hargrave:

I think people who are not in a clinical space could still live up to those values. Even the more clinical centred ones, care and respect, I think they're still good solid values for anybody to have, whether you're working in a clinical space or not. And I've said this in executive meetings before, I think you've just got to weave it into everything that you do in your business area. Prior to the development of the new values, we had an older set of values and we used to put those...

When I first came over here, we were putting those as a discussion point and the behaviours that represented those values into our monthly meetings, and you just continue to have them and promote them. And encourage people to identify and talk about things where maybe they'd seen something that didn't represent the values and call it out. But also celebrate the things where we have demonstrated great values, the behaviours that support the values that we have. So I think for me about embedding them in the organisation is really about trying to weave them into everything, just your day-to-day business.

Yeah, it's nice to have acronyms and it's nice to have pretty posters, but unless you're talking about them and you're using them to influence the way you behave and do business, I don't think anyone's going to pick them up. So I think that's for me how I'd prefer to do it, is that you just promote it in everything you do, every meeting, every conversation you have. When I did this in another organisation, what I encouraged my staff to do was have a printout of the values on their desk. Not on their computer desktop, on their desk, so that whenever they were talking to someone or they were sending an email or they were responding to a phone call, you could just look down at them and reflect on what the values were and then reflect.

While you're talking to this person or drafting an email or whatever, you could reflect on what the behaviours were and that you should be promoting, particularly as a leader if that was your role. So that was something that I did, is I said to people, "Just print a copy of them out and put it on your desk so that you can just cast your eye over them at any particular time of the day, if you've just had a difficult conversation or you're drafting an email or you're responding to a phone call." So it's just little things like that.

I think you can do lots of the big stuff, lots of the promotion and the promotional material, but I think like lots of things, the real benefit comes when it's down at the grassroots level, and it's actually being used to affect or influence just the little things. The conversation you and I are having or just the way you're holding a meeting or that day-to-day stuff, I think is where it really makes a difference.

Dorian Broomhall:

I really like that print out on your desk so you can see it. Conflict only happens when someone chooses to engage in a particular way at someone else's input. And I really like that idea that then you've got compassion is the first thing that you see. Well, before I snap, is there a compassionate way that I can approach this, that accountability piece, is there anything in all of this that perhaps I could have done differently, that I could name up and take some accountability for that again might, if there is about to be a situation, defuse it really, really quickly.

Andrew Hargrave:

Yeah.

Dorian Broomhall:

I think that having that constant reminder as on one hand, naff as it might sound, I think it's really important. It's interesting having these conversations with your colleagues that I had been over the last few weeks, I found that I'm talking about the values more and more, and I'm actually consciously thinking about, hang on, as we have this conversation in the work that we do through One Health as often around going, how do we communicate in a slightly different way so we enhance the culture and people have a better time at work, and often using these values is actually a really fast way to do it.

Andrew Hargrave:

Yeah.

Dorian Broomhall:

Is there one out of those four that particularly resonate for you in some way, shape or form?

Andrew Hargrave:

Not really. I like to focus on all of them and look at them as a package, I think. So not really. Yeah, I think that's all I'd say, is that I just try and look at them as a package of things that I need to focus on and not focus on just one. So it's the whole lot really. Otherwise, I think you can become a bit too focused on one and forget the others, and I think they need to work as a system.

Dorian Broomhall:

Yeah. Tell me more about working as a system, 'cause I think you're absolutely right. How do we think about these more as a system?

Andrew Hargrave:

It's just like a balancing beam, I think, and you've got your care and you've got your respect and you've got your excellence. You just want to approach the way you do your business or your interactions with people with all of those things in... And this stuff's tough, right? It's not simple. I think the other part of this conversation is we can often talk about it like it's really simple stuff. It's not, 'cause all human beings and we've all got our little idiosyncrasies or things that annoy us or...

So I think it's about looking at all of them and understanding what behaviours are representative of all of those things, and trying to, I guess, understand in yourself when you might be departing from one of those, and then pulling yourself back, and then making sure you don't focus too much on the excellence piece, instead of doing things in a compassionate and respectful way as well. I think they are linked. There is a system to it. How do I describe it? Probably I should try and do it better than that, but I think I just don't look at it as a one-off, which is why I don't try and focus on one of them. There's a system of values there that we...

If I take a project management... This might be the best way for me to describe it. If I take a project management approach, which is really about managing time, cost and quality, and you can't change one of those without having an impact on the other. I look at the values in the same way. If you're putting all of your effort into excellence, you're going to see a deficit in your care and respect, etcetera.

Likewise, if it's all about care and respect, you might be seeing some of your excellence slip away. So it's about just that continual monitoring of each one of these, knowing that you can't change one of them without having an impact on the other. So that's probably the best way I'll talk about it in terms of the system.

Dorian Broomhall:

You mentioned before about this idea of difficult conversations, which tends to come up and we know that nobody likes having them, and sadly it's part of our day-to-day, and it's what we do. There's an area of it that I'm keen to understand a little bit better, from your perspective. So rather than talk about how you'd approached the conversation itself, if you just had a difficult conversation with somebody that could have gone really well, might not have gone great, kind of doesn't matter what the outcome was, what do you do at the end of it? Have you got anything that you do to wrap that up?

Andrew Hargrave:

Yeah, I normally provide an opportunity for the person to feel free to come back to me at any stage. When the difficult conversations are difficult and there's always, or there's often lots of emotion involved, people tend to not think clearly in those situations. So I think it's reasonable that you can provide people with an opportunity to come back and follow up a conversation with you. But I think I try and close the conversation with, "Have you got any questions? If you do or if there's anything else you'd like to discuss, please feel free to come back and see me."

So I don't make it like its terminus, that's the end of this difficult conversation. But if there's anything that you feel that you need to add or you'd like to have a further conversation about, then you're welcome to do that. So what I say to my staff is, I have an open door policy, so if my door's open, you can come and talk to me about anything at any time. If my door's closed, it's 'cause I'm focusing on something.

So I think at the end of an open conversation, I'll try and make sure they know I've got an open door so they can come back and have a further conversation with me or seek some further explanation. But I'm never trying to make an enemy out of people.

Dorian Broomhall:

I actually really like that idea of going... 'Cause again, as you have those conversations, especially if you're on the receiving end of it, so to speak, and you might not have known that was where today was going to go, you don't necessarily have all your thoughts collected and the other person might. And I think that that's another thing, as a person initiated the conversation to bear in mind. But I like that idea of going, if you think of anything else, it's not over.

Andrew Hargrave:

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, it's not a terminus. If there's anything you want to talk about, well, you can come back and see me. Yeah.

Dorian Broomhall:

Thank you for your time.

Andrew Hargrave:

You're welcome.

Dorian Broomhall:

Thank you very much, Andrew.

Andrew Hargrave:

All right, cheers.

Dorian Broomhall:

Thanks to Andrew Hargrave, the Deputy Secretary of Infrastructure for taking the time to speak with us and to you for listening. I hope you found something in our conversation that you can take away and apply into your own work. If you work for the Department, you can read more about our care values on the intranet or by completing the Care in Practise e-learning module on THEO.

Join me again for our next episode when I speak with Francine Douce, our Chief Nurse and Midwifery Officer.